Posted by: nathanfinn | March 13, 2007

The Varieties of SBC Conservatism: A Blog Essay

I am an unashamed theological conservative. I am glad that conservatives won the battles of the 1980’s and 1990’s. I disagree with most moderate Baptists about most issues, at least those issues related to convention theology and politics. But many moderate scholars were right about at least one thing: the single-issue nature of the conservative alliance, the very tactic that resulted in an almost total conservative victory, has the potential to be our very undoing. Let me explain.

Conservative leaders like Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler have been very up front about their strategy in the 1980’s. They made the inerrancy of Scripture the heart of their platform; in fact, at times inerrancy was almost the totality of their platform (along with perhaps Religious Right politics). This was a smart political move for several reasons. First, while many average Southern Baptists may not understand all the nuances of the differences between conservatives and moderates, they can understand that some SBC leaders believed the Bible contains mistakes of fact. Second, there was the desire to draw together as many SBC inerrantists as possible by not dividing over those issues that inerrantists disagree about among themselves. Third, there was the assumption that, once SBC leadership and scholars were committed to a common view of biblical inspiration, all those other issues could be worked out. More on that later.

Making the inerrancy of Scripture the issue during the SBC Controversy was a brilliant political strategy. It was perfect for winning the war. But what happens once a denomination has won the war and needs to keep the peace?

Many conservatives are scared to say it, but it seems self-evident: the coalition is breaking apart. The war is over. And inerrancy, though absolutely necessary, is no longer enough. So either by choice or by varying degrees of ostracism from the majority, subgroups of inerrantists have either departed or disengaged from active SBC life.

The first inerrantists to move away from the larger movement were those inerrantists who were either sympathetic to the pre-1979 status quo, were critical of some personalities or tactics among conservative leadership, or both. Many of these inerrantists comprise the “rank and file” of groups like CBF, and not a few of them now refuse to call themselves inerrantists because of what they perceive to be the “baggage” associated with that term in SBC circles.

The second group of inerrantists to be excluded from the movement were the egalitarians. Now to be fair, most egalitarians are not inerrantists. And most of them were totally committed to the moderate side all along. But the few that considered themselves SBC conservatives, most of whom were professors, were on the outs by the mid-1990’s and definitely by the time the Baptist Faith & Message was revised in 2000. In the post-Controversy SBC, egalitarians need not apply.

Although neither of the above groups are involved in the SBC in any meaningful sense, the following subgroups constitute some of the varieties of SBC conservatism. 

The third subgroup of inerrantists is made up of SBC charismatics. Already by the 1980’s charismatics were getting into trouble in the convention, albeit typically at the associational level. But the Home Mission Board (now NAMB) developed a policy in the mid-1980’s that those who exercised the gift of tongues could not be appointed as home missionaries. And of course 20 years later this same issue is at the center of controversy with our International Mission Board. Those who practice charismatic gifts, almost surely a minority among SBC innerantists, are increasingly on the outs.

A fourth group of inerrantists that is increasingly controversial are the Calvinists. During the 1980’s, SBC Calvinism flew “under the radar” among most SBC inerrantists. But the Founders movement grew increasingly popular, Al Mohler was elected president of Southern Seminary, thousands of SBC 20-somethings were turned on to Reformed theology by collegiate conferences and the writings of men like John Piper and R. C. Sproul, and many of the sharpest scholars among SBC conservatives were committed to a basically Calvinistic understanding of salvation, even if there was disagreement about the extent of the atonement. Calvinism continues to be a point of contention among SBC conservatives, at times as much a generational conflict as a theological debate.

The final group of inerrantists that fast is becoming the new boogeyman in SBC life is made up of those (mostly) younger pastors and seminarians who are open to elements of the various Emergent/emerging/missional movements. This is not so much a group as a number of different groups that, to varying degrees, are interested in thinking outside the (SBC) box when it comes to doing local church ministry. And not coincidentally, many of the Southern Baptists who are open to insights from the above-mentioned movements are also committed to either Calvinism, elements of charismatic theology, or both.

While these groups of inerrantists have faced various degrees of ostracism within the wider inerrantist movement, other groups have positioned themselves increasingly as the “mainstream” of the conservative movement.

One group of inerrantists that continues to dominate the conservative agenda includes those “revivalist” inerrantists identified with the earliest days of the SBC megachurch movement and the smaller churches that follow the lead of those megachurches. They tend to appreciate the so-called “Sandy Creek” tradition in 18th and 19th century Baptist history, though they routinely project their own contemporary preferences onto the tradition. The revivalist movement is at odds, to varying degrees, with all of the above-mentioned movements, though the Emergent/emerging/missional crowd has enjoyed success among some of the newer megachurches. It is from this pool that many of the most notable SBC pastors and other leaders are drawn.

A second group of inerrantists whose star continues to rise is the Landmark movement, which is both a movement unto itself and a shadow-movement that can be present as a subset of many of the above movements (particularly the revivalist and Calvinist movements). Landmarkism was long out of touch with SBC leadership, but has enjoyed a major revival in the last 30 years or so. Once confined to the mostly rural churches of Kentucky and Arkansas, Landmarkism is once again roaming the halls in some corners of SBC academia.

What this admittedly simplistic typology should make clear is that the SBC inerrantist movement was never a monolithic movement, but rather was a loose coalition of different movements, some of which do not always play nicely together. Add to this plurality of movements newer trends like the Emergent/emerging/missional groups, and you have a Southern Baptist Convention that is much more conservative now than it was in 1975, but is as divided as it has ever been; the divisions are simply different in our present context.

The question before us is this: where do we go from here? Can the inerrantist coalition, already splintering, sustain itself indefinitely, or is the SBC going to look drastically different in another 20 years? Let me offer some personal observations and prescriptive suggestions, all of which are nothing more than the opinion of one somewhat informed Southern Baptist. This is not so much an exhaustive list as it is personal musings.

First, it was probably a mistake to limit the conservative theological agenda to inerrancy. There is little doubt that it led to a speedier victory, but I cannot help but wonder if we would be in better shape had we spent more time articulating a more fully-orbed conservative agenda. As it is, we are left fighting among ourselves about a host of issues and looking rather obnoxious to the watching world.

Second, there are some groups that (in my opinion) should have never been included in the coalition, and others that it was probably best they voluntarily leave. Full-fledged egalitarians should have never been included because, frankly put, most conservatives other than those in the Wesleyan tradition agree that there are some ecclesiastical positions that women are biblically precluded from occupying. At the very least, that would include pastors/elders. The rest can be debated and is debated. [It should be noted that most conservative leaders apparently feel the same way, seeing as egalitarianism was systematically "de-conservatized" in the SBC from 1984 to ca. 2000]. 

I also think it is best that most inerrantists who are sympathetic to the pre-1979 status quo have left or disengaged from the SBC, not because they are not fellow inerrantists, but because their convictions on other issues (like gender roles) are sufficiently different from most Southern Baptists to necessitate their cooperating with other networks and fellowships. They are more free to be themselves in CBF or Mainstream Baptists than in the SBC.

Third, some of these inerrantist movements are troubling if they are embraced without criticism. An uncritical embracing of the left-wing Emergent movement is bad news, and it is OK to say so publicly. What is not OK is to claim, as some have, that anyone who uses words like “emerging” or “missional” are on the same level as Brian McLaren; to suggest as much is to break the ninth commandment. This is the source of unending (and often unneccessary) controversy among SBC conservatives.

It would also be a mistake to uncritically embrace Landmarkism. Let me say loud and clear that I am much more concerned about those among us with no discernable Baptist ecclesiology than I am with Landmarkers. At least Landmarkers are attempting to articulate a systematic, biblical ecclesiology, even when (in my opinion) they fall short. Landmarkism itself is not the bad guy. But some versions of Landmarkism are not benign. There is a type of strident Landmarkism that historically has led to the rejection of cooperative missions among Southern Baptists and attempted to equate “Landmark” with “Baptist.” Modern versions of this malignant Landmarkism should be resisted because they will destroy us.

Fourth, many people engaged in the Calvinism debate need to take a cold shower. Many obnoxious Calvinists (especially aged 21-35) need to show some Christian charity to non-Calvinist Southern Baptists. And many vitriolic anti-Calvinists need to at least attempt to understand the tenets of Calvinism before they preach or write against them. It breaks my heart that this issue is so divisive, and I cannot help but think most of the problem is a combination of immature Calvinists who make uncharitable comments on blogs coupled with carnal or ignorant pastors and others who are more concerned with discrediting Calvinism than honestly exegeting texts and/or accurately describing Calvinist convictions. If you are a Calvinist freedom fighter who is concerned with the doctrines of grace to the exclusion of denominational cooperation, do us all a favor and become an independent Reformed Baptist; it is what you really are. And if you are a revivalist who believes that Calvinism = hyper-Calvinism or ignorantly believes that Calvinism hinders evangelism and mission, do us all a favor and become an independent fundamentalist Baptist; it is what you really are.

Fifth, Southern Baptists need to decide soon what we are going to do about the charismatic movement. We will not all share the same conviction. But we need to decide if it is OK to be a charismatic and be in Southern Baptist leadership or not. And then we need to stick with whatever we decide, because is is unacceptable to be a denomination that indefinitely has no formal policy but instead has a variety of mini-policies at various boards and agencies. While I wholeheartedly believe the trustees and/or administrations of those agencies have the right to make such decisions, the proliferation of such policies without a formal denominational position only further divides Southern Baptists. We need to at least officially decide what we are going to do, even if it is to remain silent at the convention level; at least then the issue will not be looming over us.  

Sixth, we should resist the temptation to look at one church or type of church as the pacesetter for all SBC churches. There are some who look to FBC Woodstock, some who look to Capitol Hill Baptist Church, some who look to Saddleback, and even some who look to the average (whatever that means) rural church. None of these should be the only model, because the SBC needs each of these (and other) types of churches. For too long too many Southern Baptist have looked to older megachurches as the embodiement of the what is best about the SBC. Others, in a reaction to this trend, romanticize rural churches as the heart and soul of the SBC. Still others, especially in younger generations, look to notable Calvinistic churches or confessedly missional churches as the future of the SBC. The reality is each of these types of churches have strengths and weaknesses, and each of them (I hope) are part of the future of the SBC.

Finally, Southern Baptists need to decide what constitutes the acceptable limits to conscientious dissent. In other words, on which issues (if any) is is appropriate for a trustee, committee member, seminary professor, missionary, or other denominational servant to disagree with the majority? Is it OK to object to items found in the Baptist Faith & Message and/or other agency-specific confessions of faith? Which items? Is it OK to affirm convictions not delineated in our confessions but are undoubtedly minority positions among Southern Baptists (glossolalia, open membership, etc.)? This will undoubtedly be controversial, but we have to work through this question. My suspicion is that everyone agrees in principle that some dissent is appropriate and some is inappropriate. But until we at least attempt to reach a consensus that most Southern Baptists can affirm, we will continue to have conflict over minority convictions. My big fear is that, because of our current milieu, the “battle lines” have already been drawn on this topic, hindering meaningful dialog about this crucial issue.

This much is certain: Southern Baptists will continue to lose many of the most gifted men and women of my generation to community churches, Sovereign Grace churches, Evangelical Free Churches, the PCA, and Bible churches until we admit that there are genuine differences among SBC inerrantists, stop demonizing both dissenters and status quo apologists (depending upon context), and make a good-faith effort to trek together through these deep waters until we arrive at the dry land of a newer, healthier, more robust SBC conservatism. Conflict will be inevitable as we move forward, and uncooperative agitators in all parties will need to be encouraged to move on to other affiliations, both for their own integrity and the integrity of our convention.

The key is to be open-minded and big-hearted as we move forward in this project, never allowing personal agendas, vendettas, or the convictions of one party to hijack the process and ruin all hope of a cooperative future. We must diligently reject the agendas of status quo hacks and suicide bloggers, Genevan mafia and Anabaptist culture-warriors, post-denominationalists and Bapto-centric bigots, angry fundamentalists and closet moderates. In other words, the key is to be balanced, not as “balance” is defined by any of these agenda-driven subgroups, but as balance is defined by the majority, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit and in submission to Holy Scripture. If this is the approach that characterizes us as a denomination, then I think our best days are still ahead.  

Responses

[...] A: They were all used in an excellent essay written today by Nathan Finn. Stop whatever you were doing and go read it right now. [...]

Nathan,
Well written, thought provoking… hmm… maybe blogs can be used for good. I’ve sometimes thought that the SBC is the worst example of how to cooperate in denominational life with the exception of every other example I’ve ever seen. Our history is filled with disageements and arguments and I feel sure our future will have much of the same. But God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to use the convention despite our short-sightedness and argumentative tendencies- and I am optimistic enough to believe He will continue to do so.
Blessings, doug munton

Brother Nathan,

It has been a while, but I want to say well done. I probably would disagree with some of your camps, but I will just say it.

Thanks for the courage to put this in print. Of course you may hear from some status quo hacks and suicide bloggers, Genevan mafia and Anabaptist culture-warriors, post-denominationalists and Bapto-centric bigots, angry fundamentalists and closet moderates. :> ;)

Blessings,
Tim

nathan,

this is very insightful and very good. this ought to be printed in every baptist state paper in the sbc. my friends say all the time that we may be witnessing the destruction of the sbc. i hope not.

david

Doug, thanks. I think the disagreements are nigh unto inevitable because of our commitment to autonomy and liberty of conscience. It makes us strong when we are unified, and it fractures us into millions of tiny pieces when we are divided.

Tim, long time no see. I do not expect to hear much from anyone who would fit those categories, mostly because they have either written off blogs entirely, or because they are so busy with their own slander blogs that they do not have time to read mine.

David, I don’t recall if you have commented here before, but welcome. Thanks for the kind words, and I also hope your friends are wrong.

NAF

This post was extremely well said. I’m not exactly sure if I fall into any of your categories, but I wish every Southern Baptist would read this.

Amen and Amen :) well said (as always).
Steve

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Dear Brother Nathan,

You have really nailed it! My favorite of the questions you are asking is, “To what degree is it appropriate/approved of to question the majority positions?”

Love in Christ,

Jeff

Great post Nathan!!

First, let me say a double amen to the section on calvinism. Being a man who personally averages somewhere between 5.75 and 6.25 on the calvinism scale I can personally say, I can’t stand some Calvinists. :) They really make it hard for me to even discuss these issues with others in a way that might be God glorifying. Not because of me, but because of the preconceived ideas about me. I’m sure you’ve experienced that at some point.

Second, I would never except anything that Brian McLaren says until we get him to spell his name correctly. :)

Third, what the heck is going on with Scott’s comment above. I’m a little dumb when it comes to blogging, but why is his comment the way it is?

Dougald

PS- We should really talk. I find it funny that you and I probably exchange more here than at church or work. And, not just about politics. ;)

Nathan,

I’ll echo the previuos comments. Well said.

I meant accept anything Brian McLaren said.

Great post, Nathan. I definitely fall into two of those categories and at times have wondered if I fit it in with the SBC in terms of ecclesiology. There are many many many SBC churches who are scared to death to hire a Calvinist or someone who embraces an emerging/missional methodology. Therefore, a young pastor that embraces these beliefs goes and plants a church when there are many established churches with committed people that are starving for young, sound, and energetic leadership.

And you are also correct in stating that until some powers-that-be in the convention quit frightening all of the local churches (through whispers in the state conventions and local associations) about these young pastors who mainly come from Louisville and Wake Forest (I know for a fact that SC churches are scared to death to hire SBTS grads), the SBC will continue to lose bright young pastors to other organizations.

Seriously good stuff. Thanks.

Bro. Finn - Sagacious and insightful. Amen and amen! To steal a line from John Piper, I consider myself a nine point Calvinist. But I have to agree that some Calvinists really get on my nerves. They often allow their intellectual snobbery to get in the way of true brotherhood and fellowship. This is the same stereotypical snobbery that has plagues the IT business for years (from whence I come). Next thing you know Nick Burns (Jimmy Fallon on SNL) will be trading in his pocket protector and MCSE for a copy of Calvin’s Institutes and an ESV bible!!!

I may differ with Brother Johnny on the issue of alcohol, but I can join with his passion for spreading the gospel message. I may differ with Drs. Patterson and Vines on the TULIP, but I still stand by them in their desire to call sinners to repentence (some of us Calvinists still believe in invitations.)

Nathan,

I completely agree with your suggestion that both sides of the Calvinism debate need to take a cold shower. Coming from a Reformed perspective, however, I will say that the revivalist majority must mature to a point of being realistic about the whole matter that there have always been and will continue to be Calvinistic Baptists in the SBC. I think there are some positive signs in this direction, such as the Patterson/Mohler debate, but even as an avid rejector of the “Genevan mafia,” I have been interrogated with open hostility on three occasions (by people with whom I was otherwise close) regarding my stand on the doctrines of grace. I should not share the exact reasons and occasions, but my provocation amounted to something like saying I liked a certain Reformed author. This is just ridiculous.

Question: to what extent do you think that alliances between the minority groups you identify are helpful or harmful? Personally, I think that Calvinistic Baptists are making a mistake to cast their lots with other self-identified “disenfranchised” minorities, such as the emerging and charismatic crowds for this reason: I think that it obscures their legitimacy in the convention, providing even more fodder for anti-Calvinists. Charismatics and emerging are relatively new on the scene. I am not advocating Calvinist entitlement, but shouldn’t Reformed theology be seen as in a whole different category?

Maybe I’m wrong about this, but I just don’t see full-blown charismatics as any sizable group in the convention, and I think that the overwhelming majority of SBC churches are something less than full continuationists. In other words, Baptists by-and-large are not charismatics, though some inerrantists are. I think this goes back to your initial discussion about the single issue resurgence, and I put the question like this: Are we going to be a Baptist convention, or an inerrantist convention. I do agree with you that the charismatic issue must be addressed, but how?

As for the emerging group, I become increasingly wary. I am all for contextualization, but I see the subjugation of Truth and propositionalism to “my story”, syncretistic spirituality, and, of course, denial of key doctrines as irredeemable. Even those iconic emphases of the emerging church that I am attracted to, such as the desire for authentic community and its challenge of overcommitment to modernism, I see undermined by the movement itself. How can a movement that in a very consumerist way caters to a niche demographic carry the banner for “community”? How can it challenge cultural accommodation to one a-Christian philosophical commitment, when it is so obviously drawn to another itself? I understand that not all emerging groups are the same, but they are associated or else the demand to distinguish them would be superfluous. As emergent becomes more extreme and incompatible with Baptists, much less orthodox Christians, shouldn’t those in the emerging movement who want to be (and certainly may deserve to be) taken seriously in Baptist life begin to radically distance themselves from that extreme–if in fact they are different?

I don’t think Landmarkism could ever predominate in the convention as that would create an unbelievable paradox. I think it will continue to be a somewhat needed check on the denominational machinery. The pernicious extreme of Landmarkism will almost certainly remain a minority, and to the extent that its bark is louder than its bite, that extreme might inadvertently serve in a positive way to rally more moderate Landmarkers to stay on guard.

I’ve given way more than my two cents, and I’m sure I’ve gotten not a few things wrong. Sorry for the long comment–you just got me thinking.

As many have already said, insightful analysis, Nathan. Thanks for making the time to write and share. This post deserves a wide reading.

If you don’t mind a personal comment… I’m wondering where or if I fit anymore in the SBC family. I experienced a “charismatic renewal” years ago, and I recently had dinner with Brian McLaren here in Malaysia — and posted about it publicly without criticizing him. (Uh-oh, maybe I’ll be blacklisted now, if I haven’t been already. :-)

Seriously, I realize that Brian is provocative, and he and some of his friends get way out on a limb, but I’d rather engage his ideas and converse with him instead of labeling, dismissing, or even demonizing him — which some SB pastors and leaders seem quick to do with whomever they strongly disagree. I find some of Brian’s critiques of church and culture quite insightful and valid. Some critiques of his and other EV writers deserve a humble rebuttal.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the SBC over the next 25 to 50 years. I hope that some godly statesmen will arise as leaders who can affirm and include the minority Baptist groups while focusing on church health and Kingdom growth. If, however, Convention leaders focus more on Baptist distinctives and doctrinal “purity”, I believe the sub-groups will choose to cooperate and fellowship primarily outside the denomination. And the SBC may well be the poorer for it while it further struggles in the quicksand of internal squabbles.

Whatever happens with the denomination, I’m confident the Lord will continue to establish His Kingdom on earth. I guess I’m still Baptist enough, however, to wish that He might continue to use the SBC as an effective force for Kingdom expansion (not the multiplication of Baptists, mind you, but of indigenous disciples worldwide). May it be so.

A handful of reasons why we are leaving:

We are leaving because we are more committed to winning souls in the world than winning a majority position in a denominational arena.

We are leaving because we have the ability to hold different theological positions and discuss those positions, without hating one another for them.

We are leaving because it is more important to us to worship with a pure heart and serve with clean hands than to judge others in their worship and service.

We are leaving because we understand that when Christ returns he will not be riding on a Donkey or even on an Elephant for that matter.

We are leaving because we want to distance ourselves from tongues seemingly set on fire by Hell that must be heard in annual meetings or on daily blogs to feel righteous.

We are leaving because the Kingdom has come, the fields are white, and many SBC workers have become more preoccupied with who THEY are and less with who HE is.

Todd,

I just wanted to clarify one thing. I haven’t read Brian McLaren. So, I can’t really comment on what he says. I know you weren’t saying anything to me. But for the sake of clarity I thought that I would say that. :)

God Bless,

Dougald

Wonderful collection and historical data. You have described the mess very well. If I would anything, it would be the need to clarify constructive criticism within the Trustee System and how disagreements should be handled like the Christians we are.

Excellent Post!

Bro. Nathan,

Great article. You really have a knack for this sort of thing. The only thing I would change is there really aren’t any Landmarkers in the Southern Baptist Convention that are seeking to reject Cooperative Baptist missions. Of course I assume you are referring to the Cooperative Program and the gospel missions type of Landmarkism. The last of this type of Landmarkers left the SBC during the 1950’s and 1960’s.

Nathan,

As many others have already said, this is a great post. I don’t know if you have identified every catergory of SBC inerrantist but I agree with the spirit of what you are saying.

The in-your-face attitude of both sides of the Calvinism issue needs to stop. The name calling and attacking in general needs to stop.

I am a Southern Baptist by conviction and I will continue to be one. It is sad however, when you live in the Bible belt and you have to drive 25 miles to get to an SBC church (passing dozens of other church to get there) that you agree with theologically (2000 BF&M).

I hope our denomination leaders can lead Southern Baptists to an understanding of what the SBC really is and what it means to be a Baptist. It has nothing to do with politics and power.

Blessings

Jonathan

Wow, there are a lot of good comments here. Thanks for the kind words and suggested corrections. I am in and out the next couple of days, but I will try to interact with most of the comments as I have time. It will be in stages, so please be patient with me.

NAF

Nathan,
Great post, although a bit discouraging. I find myself, through honest interpretations of scripture and the working of the Holy Spirit in my life, at various times all of the following: egalitarian, Wesleyan, somewhat charismatic, missional, AND Southern Baptist. I was beginning to think I had found a home here in the SBC, but that is looking less likely…

I used to talk theology and politics with Methodist friends, and they would say “Are you sure you’re not a Methodist?” I am sure; I can’t get past infant baptism. But honestly, I struggle with where to “fit in” denominationally, and I can’t help but think I am not alone.

Here, then, is my point of concern: your post intends to call for peace, and if your suggestions were followed, it would result in peace I believe. The critical question is definitely the one about how much dissent to allow. For instance, if I am egalitarian in my convictions, but don’t force that position on anyone, will I be “allowed”? Or will I be blacklisted by unspoken consent to “keep the peace”? And if most of the significant dissent is encouraged to move on for the sake of their own integrity, from where does the prophetic voice come to tell us when we are wrong? Our understanding of scripture as Southern Baptists has changed remarkably over the last 200 years, and I see no reason for God to stop fine-tuning us for His kingdom. We must be very careful not to silence His voice among us, even if it asks for change.

In Christ,
Tim Cook

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I felt much the same way as Tim when I read your post. Although I am not necessarily an egalitarian, I’m not sure if it is a point over which to divide - as long as those egalitarians find their position via their interpretation of Scripture and not because they have succombed societal pressures.

Also, I have met a good number of commited Southern Baptist Christians who prefer not to use the word “inerrant” because they claim it is more a sociological word of political power steeped in modernist presuppositions and less a theological assumption rooted in Scripture and the tradition of the church. They nevertheless think of Scripture as completely true and consider it the word of God. Can I think this way and still be considered part of the SBC? Can my Baptist friends and professors?

As I read your post, I also thought of one more inerrantist group: the political activists. Honestly, this is the group that I fear most. For example, my church back home would freak out if I told them that I was a pacifist. The lack of political speak is one thing that Andrea and I like so much about FBC, but FBC is one of the few exceptions. Can I still be a part of the SBC and be a (quiet) pacifist?

Nathan,

A historian’s precision. Excellent assessment.

As I read the last part about defining what would and would not be acceptable for charismatics in the SBC, I wondered if you are advocating an amendment to the BFM, or maybe a resolution. Could you elaborate?

Dougald,

Right. No problem. I was working off Nathan’s inclusion of the Emergent/emerging/missional movement, of which McLaren is one of the leading writers and practitioners. It just so happened that you mentioned his name and its faulty spelling. :-)

Blessings,
Todd

I agree with most of that Nathan. Your Fourth point, especially because of the blogs, needs to be heard loud and clear.

Finally, Southern Baptists need to decide what constitutes the acceptable limits to conscientious dissent.

I think 0ur polity will work this one out in the end, Nathan because whatever church you’re talking about there’s going to be a business meeting where the issue is going to be decided. Good or bad…

That was painful reading, but necessary Nathan and thanks for posting it up.

Josh
“…the word of God is not bound.”
–2 Timothy 2:9

Thanks for a well written, and well thought out presentation about the past and future of conservatism in the SBC. I am new to your blog, but have read some of your writings on other sites. I am a committed conservative with a high view of Scripture. I reject cessationsim and some of the doctrines of grace ring true to me. However, I have always thought of myself as a Southern Baptist and that there was room for many different types of conservatives, as you have well said.

I do get a little nervous when one section of the convention suggests that we need to “decide what we are going to do about” another section. I fear that any statement about the charismata will lead down a road of deep division. I feel that many average baptists, while they don’t know or practice tongues or such, are deeply seeking the Spirit’s movement in their own life and in their churches. Any action by the convention that resembles a “quenching of the Spirit” will not be received well by them, or me.

I also don’t like one group of Southern Baptists telling another group to go join this independant baptist group or that one because “that is what you really are.” No one cluster among the 15 million (excuse me, 7 million) SBC has the right of defining what a Southern Baptist really is. Even if a vote is taken at an annual meeting where 10,000 might attend, it will not represent the entire convention unless we embrace the available technology to allow messengers to vote without having to travel to the meeting site.

Jeremy Mathis, thanks for the comment. You note that you are not sure if you fall into any one of the categories. I understand completely. I do not think all of the categories are mutually exclusive; rather, it is an attempt at an (admittedly simplistic) typology that takes most SBC conservatives into account. In other words, most of us are close to one or more of these groups, even if not in lock-step with any of them. But I think your concern at being “pigeon-holed” is shared by many others, myself included.

Dougald, I am not whiz when it comes to computers, but I know that what Scott did is called a “trackback.” I have no clue how to do one, but they look really cool!

Charlie, I think you are right that one reason people with minority opinions plant churches is because it is easier to “be yourself” when you start a new church than it is to try and change an existing church. I think there is a reason that as many of our NAMB church plants are “missional” and/or pastored by Calvinists rather than being modeled after the older megachurch paradigm or some other paradigm. I think you are also correct that the exodus of young pastors will continue as long as the smear campaign marches on.

Lucas, I appreciate your wise comment. I share your sentiments about seeing Calvinist and non-Calvinist Southern Baptists better cooperate. I would suspect that most feel that way, and that the most vitriolic antagonism on both ends come primarily from immature Calvinist seminarians and collegians and a small (but influential) cadre of anti-Calvinist pastors, professors, and bureaucrats.

Mike D., you raise some great questions, but I will have to come back and chat later.

NAF

Matt,

Do you think the view of the word “inerrancy” that you have heard has anything to do with the school you go to? :o

Just kidding!

Nathan,

This is a timely post, and one which I think we should really ponder.

Yeah, the track back does look cool. And, it gets people to your blog. Sneaky…

Scott,

You’ll have to teach me that one next time I see you. :)

Dougald

Dougald, you dog :)! Yes, probably; or maybe the school I go do has something to do with the view of the word “inerrancy.” ;)

Nathan,

Thanks for a well written and gracious putting forth of ideas. I would have to also say “amen” to Tim Cook, Art Rogers, and Matt Easter above.

Some questions, and I have no idea how it will sound to all or be taken by all, but here goes. Is there a basic difference or should there be a basic difference between what would be called a denomination [Webster's denomination- " a religious organization uniting local congregations into a single body.] and what we call our Convention? [Webster's- An assembly of delegates/messengers convened for some purpose.] Are we [SBC] a denomination or are we a convention. Is there a unique difference? Does this/should this play into any discussion about what the SBC holds to theologically?

I’ve personally struggled a bit of late with whether we are a Convention or whether we’ve evolved into a denomination. If, in fact, there’s been an evolution…is this good or bad?

Brother Paul,

Dr. Sullivan’s Book on Baptist life, I cannot remember the exact title as I am not in my office, points directly to your question.

He points out that there is a difference in a convention and a denomination. I believe, and I am not certain on this, that the convention meets once a year, while as a denomination we work together through the entities and agencies. Please do not hold me to this explanation but that I what I remember off the top of my head.

Blessings
Tim

Nathan,

Although I mourn there being no future in your vision for “closet moderates” I must say that you did a great job and I deeply appreciate your work.

Bro. Nathan

What is amazing about this post is the comments that have been left. People from varying ideologies have all agreed that you have a great post. Doesn’t anyone think that is a little weird? What I mean is, has anyone really reflected if you are talking about them or the other guys???? Or have we immediately jumped to think that you are talking about the other guys and that you are not talking about our side?

While I believe we measure ourselves and our actions to the Word of God, I also believe you have given some keen insight. Whether you are on one side or the other, we should all reflect if we are truly on the Lord’s side.

Bro. Robin

BTW, great post! :-)

Nathan,

I agree with the others that your post is very insightful.

Just a couple of questions:

1. Do you make a distinction between “charismatic” conservative Southern Baptists and “continuationist” conservative Southern Baptists? As I understand the terms, there are very few “charismatics,” but quite a few “continuationists.”

2. I would love to hear your take as a student of Baptist history of the “major revival” of Landmarkism in the SBC in the last 30 years or so. Do you know of any good source material documenting this revival?

Great post Nathan - I echo Robin’s comment above!

I find myself a resident or at least a partial resident of about three of your categories.

I would like to see us as SBCrs, pray it out, talk it out and vote on the fact that we are a diverse group of folks, combined together for the purpose of reaching the world, and quit narrowing the parameters of what it means to be a Southern Baptist!

Nathan,

Insightful post! Would love to see you add “dispensationalism” to the mix as it clearly is a factor in the current conflict. If you are a cessastionist (believe certain spiritual gifts ceased in the first century), to what source would you ascribe phenomena such as “private prayer language”? Perhaps dispensationalists and continualists have irreconcilable differences…

Michael, I agree that there are far too many non-Calvinists that are just plain “spooked out” by anything even remotely positive towards Calvinism. As they are in the majority, I agree that many non-Calvinists need to mature. On the other hand, I think the burden is on thoughtful and gracious Calvinists to not demonize non-Calvinists, even if reacting to slanderous remarks from non-Calvinists.

To answer your very important question, I think alliances between minority groups are unhelpful. For one thing, it only gives the majority more “firepower” against the various minority groups. It also leads to “guilt by association” as the different minorities are all viewed as equally problematic. Plus, in our current context the various minority groups are not united in an agenda other than a rejection of the status quo.

From a historical standpoint, I agree with you about there being a difference between Reformed theology and charismatic phenomena; the former has been part of Baptist life almost since its inception, whereas the latter is a 20th century phenomena. Of course, one could argue that history is not what is relevant, but biblical teaching is. And that is where the disagreement begins!!!!

The whole distinction between “charismatics” and “continuationalists” is interesting. Not too long ago, the difference was between charismatics and pentecostals. Now those two groups are lumped together by most, and a third group has arisen which is welcoming of these gifts, but not necessarily affirming of the gifts in their own practice. This is a pretty new phenomena, both in Baptist circles and elsewhere. It remains to be seen how this “middle way” affects the SBC.

As for how to address the charismatic issue, I wish I knew. I think we all want to see something happen in this area besides what is currently happening, but I could not begin to make suggestions. All I know is that the SBC needs to address the question in convention, which of course will never address what every Southern Baptist everywhere believes, but nevertheless is the way our polity works. And I think it does work.

I agree with your concerns about the emerging group, at least the left-wing of the movement. But I do think that many of their critiques are spot-on, even when I disagree with their solutions. I think that we all have much to learn from this movement, even if we keep many of those folks at arms-length.

I think there is a lot of wisdom in your assessment of Landmarkism. Not all Landmarkers are the same. At least not until they start dictating policy …

Thanks for the good comments

NAF

No Wrath, you sounds like one wounded (former?) Southern Baptist. But I agree with much of what you say.

Tim Guthrie, I both agree and disagree with you. I am personally a huge fan of the trustee system. That said, it is not perfect, and when the controversies themselves revolve around that system, then I think the SBC in convention needs to speak to those issues. I think that is the case now.

Ben Stratton, I do not think there are many Landmarkers that are overtly opposed to cooperative missions in principle. I do think there are some who only wish to cooperate with others like them. Hence, the not-so-subtle efforts to move the SBC in a more Landmark direction, even if not the most strident form of the movement.

Jonathan, I have no doubt there are other categories of inerrantists I have missed. I also agree that we need to decide what it really means to be a Baptist. Unfortunately, I am afraid the post-denominational and the Landmarkers among us are going to make that a very difficult conversation to have. In other words, some don’t even want us to think in categories like “Baptist,” while others believe that “Baptist” is the only category there is!!!

Tim Cook and my friend Matt Easter, I will catch you guys my next run through.

NAF

Nathan, just to say it once more, thanks for this very insightful post. I have read several posts on your blog now, and continue to be impressed by your thoughtfulness and astonishing lack of vitriol (astonishing only because, unfortunately, it is so rare among “Christian” bloggers).

I have a weird insider/outsider perspective on all this, having grown up in a SBChurch, come to Christ and been baptized in a SBChurch, attended a SBChurch in college (all in Florida)…and then moved to Indiana. Not so many SBCs around. Oh, no! Praise God, I found a wonderful independent Christian Church that in its theology was virtually indistinguishable from what my home church taught (and what I understand the Bible to teach). I became quite interested in the history of that movement and have done a fair bit of reading on it.

Learning about the Restoration Movement — fascinating stuff from a church history perspective — made me realize how little I knew about the SBC and Baptists in general. I have learned more than I ever knew on that (sometimes more than I wanted to know!) from your blog. It is so disheartening to hear of all the politics (and I don’t mean the Democrat/Republican kind, though apparently that works its way in too) and divisions in the SBC. I thank God that I was never exposed to that in the two SBChurches I was a part of in the past — my churches were focused on praising God and studying the Word; I suppose it is inevitable, but I hate that that stuff has to have anything to do with church. I can’t say how much I appreciate the Christian Churches’ North American Christian Convention, where there are no votes, resolutions, etc., just preaching, Bible studies, praise, and fellowship.

I’ve moved to a new area now (Northern Virginia, or NoVA, aka the great suburban sprawl west of DC) and am having a terrible time finding a solid church that has its priorities straight (sorry, I can’t get past a church hiring people to work at a fast-food restaurant inside the church building during church services…instead of inviting them to attend the service!) Although I’m now rather “disconnected” from the whole concept of a denomination, I’d happily join another SBChurch if I find a good one. I would definitely think of myself as joining the local church rather than the denomination, though, if that makes any sense — I would define myself as a Christian, and you would probably never hear me say “I’m Baptist,” although I would certainly support worthy SBC efforts such as Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong — the SBC’s missionary program is probably the best out there, in my opinion. I think this is a rather typical attitude of people who join a SBChurch but didn’t grow up in the denomination…I am atypical because I did grow up in the denomination.

Incidentally, I have the same weird insider/outsider status with the Christian churches — although as with the SBC I find much to admire there, I would not identify myself with the Restoration Movement. Indeed, I’d guess most of the people in my large-ish church in Indiana never heard of it, having come like me from other backgrounds. (I only care because I’m an academic geek.)

To the extent I have one, I guess my point is that contributing to the issues you raise, which I agree are genuinely important for the SBC, is a growing number of people who are not Baptist “by birth.” My guess would be that these people are not interested in becoming very engaged in these issues, leading to a real disconnect between Baptist leaders and Baptist church members. I wonder what the impact of this is.

Anyway, sorry for rambling as I always do, and again thanks for laying out these serious SBC issues with such a gentle spirit. I have learned so much! Thanks for the time you have invested in this.

Nathan,

Please accept my apology for a very inappropriate comment/question, if not in content, certainly in timing. I didn’t even notice this until I return to read a good comment section and your responses. It was then that I noticed that I did what I hate to see others do and that is to introduce a topic that has little if anything to do with a labored over post.

Please accept my apology and rest assured I will ask you about the issue in my comment at a time when it IS appropriate. In the meantime, I will conclude with my repeat of appreciation of what you have written though I will admit, I did apply it to myself and see where I, perhaps more than I’ve ever realized before, am on the periphery of SBC life denominationalism and sensed an affinity with the final paragraph of Tim Cook’s comment. Keep up the good stuff.

Paul, I accept your apology, but confess I was not offended or put off in the least. I actually think you raise a great question–so great, in fact, that I was planning on responding to your question with a post in the next few days. That is what I will probably do.

NAF

Nathan,

I am guessing my question got swamped in with so many others.

How do you think we can address who is and who isn’t a Baptist? Particularly in the area of PPL, etc.?

I am afraid of an amendment to the BFM. Frankly, if we set the precedent of highly specific interpretations, it will take us down a road that will, one day, lead to the alienation of quite a few people we might not intend to alienate.

If we address this, no matter what the stance of the overall convention, I think a resolution a better move. Still, I am leery of that, as well.

What do you think?

Nathan,

First, thanks for the great post. Second, let’s get everyone in the SBC to read Francis Schaeffer’s The Mark of the Christian. I will read it twice.

I’ve probably been guilty of being over zealous in my reaction to the anti-Calvinists when their rhetoric is over the top. But I’m trying to get better. Like I said, I will read it twice.

I think there should be some standard such as the BFM by which to cooperate. This includes the CP as well as all forms of leadership in the SBC. I’m just seeking consistency here.

It seems that if this is to be worked out it would be a long process. And this process should include, some how, some way, the Convention as a whole not just the current leadership. Yes, I am talking about the people in the pews who are actually a majority of the Convention. Maybe this is way off base and not even practical, but I really believe that many people in the pews don’t really know what’s going on in these issues.

People should know what and who they are supporting. Of course, this would be very difficult considering it would have to start at the autonomous local church level. This would fall under the rules of cooperation. Again, this speaks to consistency.

I know those are extreme ideas, but I am speaking from the pew. Maybe my view is a skewed and inaccurate one limited by what I’ve seen here in the Bible Belt. That, I can’t answer. I just know what I see a huge disconnect between what the SBC leadership and the rest of the people who make up the Convention.

So Nathan what do you think about energizing the whole Convention starting in the local churches?

Mark

nathan,
First, your post does raise some good insights and your opinions are well thought out. I would like to make a couple of remarks regarding Calvinism. As a member at one of the mega-churches you mentioned, it concerns me that my pastor takes such a badly developed position on the doctrines of grace. His opposition to them is usually given on a bi-weekly, if not weekly basis in some remark during a sermon. I don’t expect him to agree with all five points of Calvinism, and I will continue to serve at this church. However, I have a very difficult time understanding his clear disdain for the Calvinist camp. Perhaps he is just responding to those who are the most vocal in that group, but there are times when I believe he has placed our church as the “anti-Calvinism” congregation.
I do believe that there is a place for Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the SBC. After all, we are both after the same thing, Kingdom growth and purity.

Nathan would it be correct to say that some doctrinal preferences are attractive to some character and personality types, and that often much opposition is to the personality and manner fo the adherent, rather than to the doctrine itself?
Steve

I appreciate the honesty and thoughtfulness of your post. As a seminary student and Minister it is interesting to see how doctrinal difference within Southern Baptist life is beginning to raise concern even at the level of the local church. During the Baptist Civil War there was a lot at stake, the very validity of the Word was being questioned and everyone from president to pastor to casual pew sitter had a dog in the fight. I often wonder why the average Southern Baptist has been so slow to realize that there is still something amiss in the convention. I do see trouble bubbling just under the surface. The professor makes a snide remark about post modernity and you can feel a cold stare coming from the rear of the room. The pastor remarks that the “Frozen Chosen Calvinists” helped extinguish the fire of Reformation and most of the congregation nods in agreement while others silently scream in their seat. I am afraid the term “Southern Baptist” has almost lost all positive connotation, even for Southern Baptists.

Thank you for vocalizing your uneasiness about a denomination whose doctrines are spread over such a vast spectrum of belief. I pray that “balance”, as you define it, is found before it is too late.

Nathan,

Thank you for helping me better understand the “big picture”. I’m a retired Air Force member who has followed the call into ministry. So I have been trying to wrap my brain around all the different issues the SBC is grappling with. Reading around the various blogs, many times only cloud the issues for me, because of the person agenda of the author. So it is good to see someone who has the ability to articulate clearly the problems and at the same time care enough to offer reasonable solutions. I have always believed “if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem”.

Thank you,

Steve

Tim Cook, I think that everyone, myself included, needs to be clearer about what we are talking about. We are talking specifically about who can serve in SBC leadership, which is a horrible term, but which basically includes all trustees, agency administrators, professors, specialists, board-appointed missionaries, etc. This may be a bit too broad a statement, but we are basically talking about anyone in a position working for a denominational entity who would be asked to sign the BF&M. Everyone recognizes that there is significant theological diversity among individual Southern Baptists and local churches. The question is this: how much should one have to agree with the majority, presumably via the BF&M, in order to serve in leadership? As I understand that question, this is why there are no Wesleyans and/or egalitarians in SBC leadership; neither position works with the BF&M. This is why there is debate about missional and/or charismatics; neither position is addressed in the BF&M, so all policies are agency-specific and not based on a decision of the SBC in convention.

So all that to say, if you are an egalitarian, even if you do not force the position on anyone, as things currently are there is no way you would be able to serve in SBC leadership; the convention has spoken clearly on that matter, so it is a settled conviction unless a later convention decides otherwise. This is how our polity works.

Matt Easter, I think most SBC conservatives would recognize that the question of gender roles is an issue that can be debated at some level. Nevertheless, the SBC has gone on record endorsing the complementarian position. I understand your hesitancy to see the SBC “divide” along these lines; I know many others who feel the same way. Nevertheless, the SBC in convention has decided to make that a first-order issue for Southern Baptists by codifing it in the BF&M. And while I understand where you are coming from in trying to differentiate between “biblical” egalitarians and “cultural” egalitarians, the same logic could be used about anything in the BF&M. What about those who come to a “biblical” conviction about infant baptism instead of a “cultural” conviction because they grew up Methodist?

I am aware that there are some who are more or less inerrantists who shy away from the term for any number of reasons. I do not think such a person would be precluded from leadership because they did not use the term–the BF&M does not use the term. But their convictions would have to match what the BF&M claims about Scripture, as well as the other issues. BUT REMEMBER, all that is being debated is who can serve in SBC leadership, not who can be “part of the SBC.” And NOBODY really believes that every Southern Baptist is eligible to serve in leadership.

I agree about the political activists, but I think they are more a quasi-group that is found within most of the other groups. And I have many times spoken publicly on multiple occasions about how the SBC needs to ditch the Religious Right rhetoric, period. As for pacifism, again, the question is not whether or not a Southern Baptist can be a pacifist; of course he/she can. The question is about who can serve in leadership. To my knowledge, pacifism has never been a litmus test, and I cannot imagine it will become one.

Art Rogers, I did not forget about question–I just have a lot of comments to interact with! I am not advocating an amendment to the BF&M, about charismatic phenomena or any other topic; it has been amended enough. I would be more in favor of a resolution where the SBC could go on record as taking a particular position, which of course would only speak for that convention meeting, but could provide real SBC-endorsed guidance for trustee boards. I do not think a resolution solves the problem (somebody in this is going to lose), but I think it will either allow charismatics to be themselves or give credibility to an anti-Charismatic posture from trustee boards.

I do not think this is a question about who is or isn’t a Baptist–nobody except a handful of Bapto-centric bigots think that there is no such thing as a charismatic Baptist and/or Baptist with a PPL. And though they are loud, nobody takes them seriously. Again, I think the question is one of leadership. Which is why I think a resolution giving guidance to the boards is a better option that putting something about tongues in the BF&M. Besides, even though I do not have a dog in this fight, if you will, I think that those who are not anti-charismatic (and I know you are outspoken about that) would probably fair better with a general resolution rather than a specific doctrinal revision to the BF&M.

Everyone, I cannot speak for other bloggers, but all I am talking about is SBC leadership. I know that this has implications for all Southern Baptists, but again, the issue at hand is who can and cannot serve in leadership. Egalitarians are out. Wesleyans are out. That probably won’t change. For the time being, charismatics and Calvinists are still in. I am an historian, not a prophet, but if I had to guess, I would say both will stay in, unless one of my subgroups develops a messianic complex and delivers the SBC from all minorities. I don’t see that happening.

Gotta take a break; more coming later.

NAF

Nathan,

Whether one would agree or disagree….excellent response and clarification. Lot’s of stuff to think about here.

Interesting response, Nathan, and thanks for the clarification. I find it interesting that you say “Wesleyans are out” I threw that out there just to emphasize the variety of my theological positions, basically. I had not considered any Wesleyan (not Methodist in the denominational sense) theology to be contrary to the BF&M, but of course I can be wrong. I describe myself as Wesleyan primarily because I am not Calvinist, and I think Wesley offers the most well-thought-out systematic theology for non-calvinists. The “in between” position seems vulnerable to the oft-repeated criticism by calvinists that there is not enough attention being paid to doctrine. Can you elaborate specifically where Wesley and the BF&M contradict each other?

In Christ,
Tim Cook

From the perspective of an outsider (PCA), who ironically is still very much in SBC circles, I very much appreciated this essay. By the way, nice avatar!

Tim Cook, what I should have said is a fully-orbed Wesleyan theology is out, by which I would include an Arminian approach to apostasy. Such is definitely inconsistent with the BF&M. If by Wesleyan you mean a Wesleyan view of election/predestination, then that does not directly contradict the BF&M. Sorry for my lack of clarity on that.

Drew, thanks you very much, my bowtie comrade-in-arms.

NAF

Has the SBC elevated the BF&M to a creedal authority? If so, why not the Apostles’, Nicene, or even the Chalcedonian Definition too? I guess I’m okay with creeds and stuff, but the SBC authority ought to come out and say it if they are going to use the BF&M as such. I always thought that the BF&M was a way of trying to say what a good number of Southern Baptists believed, but not a prescription of what they should believe.

Nathan,

After I asked, I thought that might be what you meant. From my, admittedly incomplete, reading I am not sure that Wesley himself was completely clear on that subject.

In Christ,
Tim Cook

Todd Nelson, I appreciate some of the criticisms Brian McLaren raises, but I am uncomfortable with most of his solutions.

Josh “Unbound,” that is the way our polity works, and I appreciate it. There is not one SBC leader who can get away with anything without being accountable to the majority. That is Baptist polity. So whatever solutions are brought forward–even if I disagree with them–must be decided by the majority of messengers to an annual meeting of the SBC. And of course those solutions will not be binding on any individual Southern Baptist’s conscience or any given local church. But SBC leaders will (and should) be expected to be in step with the desires of the convention.

Todd Plyant, to clarify: I am not claiming that one group needs to decide what to do about another group; that makes me as nervous as it makes you. What I am suggesting is that the SBC as a whole–which means at an annual meeting(s)–needs to decide what to do about some groups. I also think that a negative statement about the charismata would lead to division, though I do not think it would be as deep and striking as you believe. And the $64,000 question is this: will a majority of the SBC think that taking a negative stand on the charismata is “quenching the Spirit,” or will they see that as being the biblically faithful thing to do? Or neither? I think we will all stay tuned for that one …

I admit I did tell some groups to go join the other groups because that’s what they really are, but again, that is my personal opinion. I would not want a cluster to decide that for all 5-8 million of us, plus dead people and Methodists on our church roles. :) As for your note about an annual meeting not representing the totality of the SBC, I would disagree. According to our polity, that is exactly who is represented–even if only 200 messengers show up. But it may well not represent the desires of most Southern Baptists, which is why it is so crucial for churches to send messengers–so they are represented in substance and not just in form. I am not sure about what technology could do to assist in this process, but I confess you raise an interesting point that I have never considered before. Hmmm …

Paul Burleson, per my earlier comment, if it is OK with you, I want to address your very important question in a stand-alone post sometime in the next few days. Thanks for raising the question. Tim Rogers recommends James Sullivan’s book Baptist Polity as I See It, which is a good starting place. But I must confess that there are a couple of places that “I see it” differently than Dr. Sullivan!!!

Matt Snowden, I have lots of moderate friends and have gotten in trouble more than once for that reality. But I think th days of moderates in SBC leadership are probably gone, though there may be something of a “centrist” group arising that shares the theology of the conservative leadership but some of the complaints of the moderates. I am inclined to think that is happening, much to the chargin of both rock-ribbed conservatives and true-blue moderates.

Robin Foster, you raise some excellent points. In fact, I had a conversation with a friend of mine earlier today about this very topic.

David Rogers, per my comment above, I think that the distinction is relatively recent. But I do think there is a distinction, though the lines are blurry. For instance, we have more than one definition of what constitutes “tongues,” besides the question of if they continue. So I think some Southern Baptists are in more than one “camp” on this, depending upon who does the defining.

A personal example: I am not a cessasionist. I find no evidence for the position in the Bible. But neither do I think (again, personally) that what happens in most Charismatic experiences matches with tongues in the NT. Furthermore, I remain unconvinced as to the validity of PPL. But though I question most of what gets called “tongue,” I am not a cessasionist. This is a major area where we Southern Baptists need to work on some definitional precision.

As for Landmarkism, I am afraid I have no hard evidence to point to about the “major revival”–it’s all anecdotal. But I think it is happening, and I know more than one Southern Baptist who is either an out-and-out Landmarkist or strongly-influenced by Landmarkism. Some would put me in the latter category, which I am OK with, so long as we do not become a truly Landmark convention.

Jim Champion, I am also in more than one category. As for the scenario you mention, I am afraid we will have to wait and see on that one.

Greg Hicks, I would put dispensationalism in the same category as the political activists–it is a sub-group that is found in many of the other groups. I think there is little doubt that the majority of SBC leadership (stong majority) is premillenial, but I am not clear about the actual percentage who are dispensational. My personal convictions are historical premillenial,and as referenced above, I am not a cessasionist.

Rounding the corner …

Jennifer, thanks for sharing your story. I have to confess that I have major reservations with the Restoration movement in general, but I am glad you are reading up on its history. I will be praying that you find a good church in NoVA, and even that it might be an SBC church! If you would like a couple of suggestions, shoot me an email. Oh,and Tim Tebow is evil.

John Mark, good recommendation on the Schaeffer book. One of my best friends recently suggested that we should all be reading that book before we engage in public debate about the SBC. I agree with you about cooperation based on a combination of confessional fidelity and finances. Right now, we make a half-way stab at both and accomplish neither. As for involving the people in the pews, according to our polity all that can be done is encouraging people to participate so they are represented. I think the convention is being energized, though it is probably more for political than theological reasons …

David, thanks for your insights. I agree about Calvinists and non-Calvinists cooperating together for Kingdom purposes.

Steve Grose, I think that would be correct, though some will accuse me of being a secularist historian for suggesting it.

Philip, average Southern Baptists miss it because they do not care, have poor pastors, are more concerned with their local church, choose to be ignorant, and a variety of other reasons (some more noble than others). We are currently a canoe without only one paddle, inerrancy, and when you only use one paddle, you spin around in circles until you get sick to your stomach in vomit in the lake …

Steven Simpson, thanks for the kind words.
I think that covers it, at least for now.

NAF

Matt Easter, it depends upon what you mean by “creedal.” If you mean forced conformity for Southern Baptists, then the answer is definitely no. Baptists are not creedal in that sense. If by “creedal” you mean only having denominational leaders who can in good faith affirm the BF&M, then I suppose we are “creedal,” though I think “confessional” is probably a better term.

The fact is the BF&M serves two purposes. On the one hand, it is a general statement of what most Southern Baptists believe. On the other hand, it is an “instrument of doctrinal accountability” for denominational leadership. It is the latter that causes our moderate friends to accuse us of creedalism. It is not a prescriptive statement for anyone, though leaders are asked to voluntarily affirm it.

I would love to see the SBC go on record supporting the ecumenical creeds you mention.

NAF

[...] at Doxoblogy talks about homosexuality Nathan Finn, again, lays it out so even Josh can understand it. (That takes some [...]

GUESS WHAT IS NOT MENTIONED AT ALL IN THIS POST OR ANY OF THE COMMENTS?

Thanks for providing a word of hope and healing for our convention in a season of division and doubt.

May the Lord continue to use you to move us toward constructive dialogue that will hopefully lead to scriptural and unifying conclusions.

Wm. Dwight McKissic

BTW, Nathan, I think your continued “posting” in your replies to others enhances the post. Frankly, when I read the original post I read it more like Tim Cook and No Wrath did, and felt like it was more divisive than unifying; however, as you respond to others graciously and continue to chew on the topic it has become an easier to digest piece for me.

The “WHAT IS MISSING” is Jesus, of course, and I wasn’t patient enough to see if anyone would play. Part of why I saw the post as a mess (forgive me) is that all I saw was a bunch of words about all the divisions within a group of Christians and nothing about the One we must focus on to unify.

Bryan, to be honest I was not trying to be either divisive or unifying as much as I was trying to get people to think about our situation in a perhaps new way. The reason that Jesus is missing is because this is not so much a fully orbed constructive proposal as much as it is a history lesson with a little bit of suggested application. Alas, I must leave the constructive proposals to smarter men than I (though I am glad that many consider this to be a helpful post).

Dwight, thanks for the kind comment. I truly appreciate that.

NAF

Nathan,

I’m still trying to get my list of things to do down so that I can start learning some baptist history better but…

Given the SBC’s bent towards disagreements, have there been any good examples from history where the SBC has had a decent amount of dialogue?

I think right now, we have people on both sides willing to give their opinion rather than listen.

In the whole Calvinism debate I had a friend who stayed up late discussing this issue with me. It was one of the most fruitful discussions I had ever had. Why, because we both challenged one another with our knowledge of scripture. We did not challenge our views with scripture. We challenged one another to remain honest about scripture. And you know what happened? We were both drawn closer to Christ than we were before and honestly to one another. We still disagree, but I have the utmost respect for my friend and he for me (at least I think).

While, I am not one who is so quick to say that we need to accept every interpretation out there, I do think there is room for discussion and less room for power plays.

Thanks for your post and your responses.

Brother Dwight,

I have deleted some comments of mine that were inappropriate and they concerned you. I offer you my sincere apologies sir. We disagree on things, but maybe we should dialogue sometime.

Through Christ,
Dougald

Dougald, I am sure that at some point the SBC had enjoyed some real dialog about issues, but I am not aware of it. The fact is Southern Baptist history is in many ways a history of almost non-stop controversies. In fact, Walter Shurden wrote a book called “Not a Silent People” which tells the history of the SBC through the history of SBC controversies!

Demonization is always easier than dialog.

NAF

Nathan,

This was simply a superb essay. SBC Life needs to publish this one soon. It is very timely, and very appropriate.

That said, I do have a couple of questions related to the post. First of all, when you speak of “Charismatics” I wonder, following the spirit of David Roger’s post above, how you would doctrinally define such. Technically, the term doesn’t simply refer to one who speaks in tongues, but to one who holds to a particular pneumatology that if examined closely, would be antithetical to the BF&M. Although I myself am a borderline cessationist, I personally know of no Baptists who are truly “Charismatic,” yet I know several who speak in tongues, value their contribution to our Convention, and would wholeheartedly support them on the mission field, in our seminaries, or in a trustee’s chair.

Second, as one who is deeply involved in North American mission service, and very familiar with what is happening in the world of church planting and emerging methodologies, I no of no one in Baptist life who, as you put it “embraces uncritically” all things Emergent. I for one am in full agreement with your own statement regarding Brian McLaren, and believe even the most Emergent-friendly of our Baptist brothers would agree as well. Are you personally aware of an uncritical acceptance of Emergent within our ranks?

Thanks in advance for your responses, as well as for the post. Please continue to write these edifying pieces, as others like me continue to point other readers your way.

Joel, thanks for the comment and the questions. There is not one “accepted” definition of “Charismatics” that is used by all scholars (let along all Southern Baptists). Hence, my own call for definition precision in this matter. For my purposes, I would be comfortable with the definition used by most historians and sociologists: a Charismatic is a Christian who is not a member of an historically Pentecostal denomination but affirms a second-blessing of some kind that often results in glossolalia and who believes that all or most miraculous gifts continue into the present. A Pentecostal belongs to a denomination that affirms the above, though most typically say that glossolalia *always* accompanies the second-blessing exerience. By the above definition, there are many Charismatics in the SBC, as well as an annual conference for Charismatic Southern Baptists that is held in Chattanooga each year at a professedly Charismatic SBC megachurch. Now if you want to know if I believe that people with a PPL are Charismatics, the answer is “it depends.” I think many are probably not; it is very possible to have “Charismatic tendencies” without being a true Charismatic (again, according to the socio-historical definition given above).

I am not aware of an uncritical acceptance of Emergence in an SBC church. I hope I did no imply that I did. All I was intending to communicate is that many churches are sympathetic to elements of the emerging movement (though typically of the less McLaren-esque variety and more of the Scot McKnight or Acts 29 variety), and it would be bad news if any of these churches (or future churches) embraced a “full-throttle,” Emergent Village type of approach.

I hope that clarifies where I am coming from on these two issues.

NAF

Nathan,

Thanks for the response. You have been busy with this one.

I find it hard now days to write something that draws any profound attention without being intentionally divisive. I think you have produced a rarity here with a post and extremely thoughtful comments that are descriptive and hopeful.

As to the BFM, it has been amended enough. A resolution may be the only other way that we can address it. The other option is not to address it at all, which allows for more debate and the differing directions that several entities seem to be going.

If, however, we pass a resolution calling for entities not to go beyond the BFM, we will leave it intentionally undefined by preference. I would like to see that.

Though, I wonder if such a thing can become a by law of the SBC. That would give it teeth, but may be “out of order,” since the SBC is not allowed to direct the Trustees to actually do or not do anything.

BTW, I didn’t think you were intentionally ignoring me. I assumed you were awash in a see of questions and had possibly missed it. It is a plausible idea considering this thread.

Thanks for what you are doing here.

[...] What kind of SBC Conservative are you? Nathan Finn has an excellent blog essay entitled, The Varieties of SBC Conservatism.  [...]

Hey Nathan thanks for clearing up that charismatic thing too. A clear definition goes a long way towards keeping the peace.

Hey Nathan,

Check this out:

http://nathanfinn.blogspot.com/

[...] 16th, 2007 · No Comments I’ve read this over at Nathan Finn’s blog. Then I read this–H/T to Joe Thorn and I had this (per [...]

Charlie, I actually heard about the blog yesterday; one of our professors here thought a Swedish kid hijacked my blog. Oh well.

NAF

I appreciate that definition of Charismatic, Nathan. Do you think there really are a lot of Baptists who believe in a “second blessing”? Or are there more who are continualists but would not proclaim a second blessing (or even know what one was)?

Bryan, I think it depends upon what one means by a “second blessing” (which is why a put the phrase in quotation marks). There is more than one way to intepret the phrase. I do not think there are many Southern Baptists who affirm a second blessing in the sense of an entire sanctification. But then, fewer and fewer Pentecostals and most Charismatics also have moved away from that usage. I also think there is a relatively small number of Southern Baptists who have experienced what some might consider a “baptism of the Spirit” experience subsequent to regeneration, though it is likely more than the former. Again, even “mainstream” Charismatics seem to be moving away from this terminology. But I do think there are a number of more than theoretical continuationists who have actually had a “second blessing” experience of some kind (whatever they may call it) resulting in their speaking in either public or private tongues, or both.

Again, I do not think there are a “lot” of Baptists who hold to these convictions–at least comparatively speaking. But I suspect the number is higher now than it was a generation ago. Furthermore, I suspect the number is still increasing. And that is what has some folks nervous.

NAF